I am not I believe that it is murder and it's just that murder, and I think that if the mother or parents want to kill the chilled then why don't they kill them selves, and also if they did not what a chilled why where they mussing around?

So I would like to know whos for it and against it?

Against abortion. It is against my religion and in my belief against God's intention. I do know that there is an argument going around that if the unborn child is hindering the health of the mother then it is considered a reasonable abortion but I think that is like only in the first trimester. Now if it gets later in the pregnancy then I think they should try to have a c section and save the mother and the child. But then again, why not let God decide? Just my opinion though.

I had a person ask me if I would ever support "pro-choice", as he called it. I said "Sure. When they start letting the babies make the choice. And since they are minors, it won't be legal until they are 18."

Im against it. i believe its murder. no matter what happens it all Gods plan

I'm not!

Pro-lifer here

That is well said longspur.


I am against abortion.

I am against abortion with the exception of rape, or if a womans life could be in danger by delivering a child. After that I dont agree with it. Thats why they make birth control pills and contraceptives.

TOTALLY against it for any reason. If a woman is raped, she can give the child up for adoption. If the mother is at risk, well, that is the chance you take. You are at risk of dying every time you climb behind the wheel of a car, but you still do it. You could get attacked by a bear on the way to your favorite hunting spot, but you still take that risk. If it meant I might die to give birth to one of my children, well, then say your good-byes now. That is part of being a mother, to protect that child NO MATTER WHAT, even if I was to lose my life doing it.

I agree 110%

Maybe I'll get sneers here, but I'm pro-choice.

Perhaps I sound arrogant and cruel but there are too many deadbeat parents out there as it is and way too many people in general. Whats the point of having a child grow up with crappy parents, most of which are still child themselves. Yes, I understand this is life we're talking here and totally understand why people are against it. It's a very sensitive subject. I wonder how many people out there are against it until they find out they or their significant other is pregnant. I have 2 cousins no more than two years older than I am (I'm 20) and between the two of them, have 5 kids, the parents can't keep a job, have substance abuse problems and argue in front of their kids all the time.

In short, do what you can to prevent it in the first place. Wear a condom, use birth control, abstinence......whatever. And you know, sometimes, condoms break, birth control is faulty and you get pregnant anyway. What are you to do if you take the necessary steps to aviod pregnancy and someone still ends up pregnant?

Agree!
I also understand that it is a life we're talking about, but I have also seen some down right horrible homes with kids in them and I would MUCH rather a child to never be born at all then to be brought into a world where they will be hurt, hungry, cold, and lonely with no one who truely loves them enough to give them a happy home. There's already kids out there who need to be adopted, so why deliver yet another child that will spend the rest of their lives asking why they were left alone in the world?
However, I also strongly believe that the right procautions should be taken in the first place to prevent an accidental pregnancy. I'm not sure that if I ever got pregnant that I would personally be able to have an abortion, but I believe people in the free America should have the right to choose.

Against It!
So what your saying is your cousin's children would be better off if they didn't have a chance to exsist, right.

If you research your history you will find out that what is going on today is not really abortion. If you look in a unabridged Websters dictionary you will find a word aborticide. The definition of the word abortion is the accidental miscarriage of a fetus. The definition of aborticide is the intentional killing of a fetus.

Funny how are government has candy coated what it really is so that the masses will except it.

I am against it! If you couldn't tell by now.

Call it what it is ABORTICIDE. Rhymes with words like genecide, homocide, suicide.

Thats not what I'm saying at all, its a choice, and this is America. Do what you feel is right.

Choice; So if I feel it's all right to drop my drawers and take a dump on the steps of city hall thats ok, I chose it was ok. Would others repect my right to choose to doo-doo in public.

We humans don't have the power to give life, neither should we take life. Of course I'm totally against aborticide.

When a person is murdered, the body is killed, the heart stops beating, the limbs stop moving, cells stop reproducing. In my belief, the soul returns to God who gave it.

When a baby is aborted(murdered, killed) a body is killed, the heart stops beating, the limbs stop moving, the cells stop reproducing.

Can you tell me the difference?

Killing a body is murder. Killing a body is killing a body, it doesn't matter if the body weighs 200lbs, or 20 oz., its still a body, and if you kill it, you are a murderer!

my wife just had a brand new baby girl three weeks ago sunday and i could never imagine what i would have felt like if i would have made the wrong decision i could never ask her or any one for that matter to do that. however its still not against the law and i don't hate people who do it and i don't judge them either they are still people and they aren't breaking the law. I don't agree with abortion. The people i do judge and dislike is the people who do bring children into this world when they had no right to do so. I also have cousins like the ones talked about above and there children were taken from them and bounced around and around from home to home and i can see what it does to those kids. they resent every now because they were never given the chance to grow up in a proper home. I don't wish for abortion i wish that you should have to take a test when you are twenty to decide whether or not your fit to be a parent. lol then agian i prolly would have failed and then couldn't have hailey so maybe thats not a good idea lol I just don't think that people should be judged without looking at the whole situation.

I am against abortion in all but extreme circumstances. Do I think some girl should be able to have an abortion because of ignorance about birth control? No. Do I think someone should be able to have an abortion because they changed their mind and don't want a child? No. However, if your 16 year old daughter was raped and impreganted against her will, I can see allowing for abortion then. What if it wasn't even a stranger that raped her, but maybe it was incest? Should the daughter be forced to carry her father's baby? I say no.

I think abortion is an issue that you can't be all for or all against, because in special cases and scenarios, especially if it involved you or your family, your opinion is likely to change.

I am totally against abortion. In the case of the cousins above, and many young unwed parents there is always the option of adoption. Thereare waiting lists of people that are ready and waiting to adopt children to put them into a good home. I understand the situation of rape, and how sensitive an issue that would be for any woman, but the unselfish thing to do for that baby would be to carry it to term and give it up for adoption. I recognize how difficult that might be, but Christ asked us to love others, and it would be the most loving thing that could be done for that baby. The only legitimate reason I could ever see for aborting a pregnancy would be in those rare circumstances where being pregnant (not giving birth) is a danger to the mother (but again, only very early in the pregnancy). Cases where the mother's body reacts adversely to the embryo. I know that if my wife were one of those cases I would want that kind of protection in case of an accident. I would not want abortion legalized, but a stipulation for saving the mother's life. If that were the situation, I would take every precaution against pregnancy, but accidents still happen.

By the way, why don't they stop calling it "pro-choice" and just call it what it is, pro-death. Reguardless of the law the mother always has her choice. That choice is to have unprotected ###### or not to. I'm "pro-choice" too, I just think the choice is made before the baby is, not after.

Give me bad parents and a sorry environment to live in. But don't take away the feeling of a buck headed my way or the sights from a tree at first light.

I'm going with you and NYduster on this one. I mean no matter if you are for it or against it there is always going to be an argument for both sides.

I like to say I am for "limited abortion". Let's take the rape deal for instance, yea I'm for it then. Also one that might really ruffle some feathers is if a child is known to have a disease or is going to be a "vegetable" that is going to cost the family ungodly amounts of money and is also gonna eventually cut the child's life short anyway, then yea I'm for it.

Double edged sword guys and gals. Tuff one to call.

Well I dont want to pay for some crack whore or prostitute to have a child and be a crappy parent if you ask me.
Who's going to pay for the hospital bills for all the women who are forced to give birth to a child they dont plan on taking care of and should never be a parent in the first place. ALL OF US WILL have to pay outragous taxes because of your choice to make all the be parents they dont want to be. My last childs birth was just a little over $12,000 total costs. That was with no complications.
Now you want to tell some crackhead #$R@ that she is forced to have a baby and she can just give it up afterwards. Whats going to make her stop doing crack, smoking or drinking alchohol. Heck you dont think those childrens won't be primmies or have some major medical problems. You have to agree that there will be some. And then to top it off you expect some family to want to adopt a baby like that and pay through the roof all the costs that go along with it. I know 2 couples that adopted and it cost them over $30,000 for there children. That was just the paperwork and adoption process, not any medical etc.
NO one is going to pay to adopt children that are born into this world with major medical problems, and I think no one really would want to pay some low life to have a child and all the medical costs that will incur on top of that.

I'm pro-choice for that reason alone. If someone wants to be a parent let them choose if there ready. Adoption is just not a cure all. It would make this country a despair with more babies needing more medical care then is available. Everyone should think about what all the cause and effects your preaching/belief's would cause.

Just my unwanted .02 of reason.

This coming from someone who voted for Obama, who wants to raise taxes to pay for those type of people to have children?? Hmm, I am a bit confused. I also know people who have paid $30,000+ to have IVF treatments, and it isn't garaunteed. But they are willing to pay that amount to have a baby. Just because a woman is on drugs or drinking gives her no right to commit murder. That is why they make birth control.

you say you are pro baby killing because if we don`t allow it, then we all have to pay for it. here`s a thought. maybe it`s too simple to work, but here me out. first, quit voting for people that make us pay for it. if i suggest that the crackhead mom should be literally forced to provide for that child, then i`m somehow mean. but making me, and you, pay for that child is somehow ok. lets make THEM pay. even if it means forced labor. and if they don`t, we could always abort the parent......think of the savings....

and lets take that idea of yours further down the road. you like the idea of killing babies because it saves us money. and i`m sure your right. so tell me, would you be happy with killing all the minorities? because the savings on crime prevention and prosecutions could run in the billions. and we could go in and clean house in the nursing homes. the medicare savings would be astounding. and God only knows how many TRILLIONS of dollars we could save the taxpayer if we would just start aborting demoncrats........

everyone should think about what the cause and effect of there preaching is......good words.

How about we start aborting all of the convicted felons serving life sentences sitting in our prison system. That would save us millions. We could add all of the diaper snipers to the list too.

I think it depends on the stage. Did you know that the morning after pill is considered abortion? I feel that the morning after pill is ok, because at that point it is nothing more than two haploid gametes (cell from mom 23 chromosomes, cell from dad 23 chromosomes) That become one through the process of fertilization. This is now know as diploid cell made of 46 pairs of homozygus, homologues. (diploid = 46 chromosomes) (homozygus same genes, homologues matched chromosomes) so at this stage, the zygote is no more than two joined cells. So I feel that it is ok, but all protection should be made to try to prevent having to use the morning after pill. Anything past is not ok. In all respect, if a mother doesn't get the morning after pill, then she fully accepts being a mother she had her chance and decided not too, her baby is no longer a zygote - (two cells made one), it is a human being.

Note: I learned all of these words in 1 week. We started the unit in my high school biology class about inheritance.

that is not just a zygote, that is a human. lets look at it like this. all a 16 year old boy is, is a zygote that has divided a few times. if you can convince enough liberal judges of the "all it is is a 16 year old, it doesn`t count" argument, then life for a teen could be a little scary. like i`ve said before, the human form is not a constant. a male is different than a female. a 2 year old is different than a 90 year old, an asian is different than an african. but, they are ALL HUMAN. when you can make an argument that one doesn`t count because its in a certain stage of development (zygote, senoir citizen, whatever) you can make that argument for ANY stage of development. lets just hope that the supreme court doesn`t decide that you and i don`t count as a human.

and again, as i have said before, i believe in the right to self defense. just as i understand if a soldier has to kill a child shooting at him/her to save his life, a woman has the same right to defend her life. if a man is beating a woman, she has the right to defend her life.
child birth is a life threatining event. that is a medical fact. in the event of a rape, where there was no choice in the matter, if she feels her life is threatened, then her right to self defense should not be taken away. BUT, when a woman has to have a baby killed, then there should be an investigation into the event, just as there would be if i defended myself during a home invasion. that little "zygote" is a human. that little 2 celled organism is part of the team, the American team. that baby deserves the same, equal protection, under the law.

Im glad you ask, You accept the fact that God wanted this baby to be brought in the world and you accept the resposibility for your actions. Also who is the one that decides there are too many people in the world? Dale.

You just cant think of the babies( right to live} can you? Its all about the almighty $


Yea thats all they are is a bunch of big scientific words. Its still a baby, a human life. period.

hmmm... you left off abstinence on your list of faulty preventitive measures? Funny how everyone seems to think this is an impossible option. If you don't want to have a baby, don't have intercouse. Simple. And it never fails. If you want to engage in 5exual behavior, then understand that pregnancy is a potential outcome. And if that happens, then own up to it and take responsibility.

Also, for all those that are talking about health issues, rape, etc... here's a "did you know" for ya'll... did you know that less than 5% of all abortions involve these types of situations or issues. Did you also know that most pro-life organizations have stated for the record that they would support legislation to end abortion that allowed for leaving execptions to these situations... not because they think it's right, but b/c a 95% solution is better than no solution, and because if 95% of the abortions went away then the $$$ goes away and then there are no clinics or doctors. The pro-choice movement will not hold that conversation. They like to use the rapes, incest, and health stories to get to the feelings of people, but when the pro-life movement says "fine, you can have abortions in those cases. Now, let's eliminate the other abortions" they quickly change their tune and reveal their true colors, which is that they are for abortion under any and all circumstances.

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;"

Im sure glad Marry didn't abord Jesus, we would not have a sacrafice for our sins.

I hear where you guys are coming from, but I still believe what I said. In most cases the fertilization process has not even started, or just barely begun the morning after. All that pill does is prevent a fertilized egg to stick or prevent the fertilization from happening. You could really have the same argument with birth control. It does the same things.

you didn`t finish that one sentence. it should read like this. "all that pill does is prevent a fertilized egg to stick, or prevent the fertilization from happening"......killing the human.

i don`t think the morning after pill works in the same way as birth control. it is my understanding that when the sperm enters the egg, that is fertilization. birth control prevents that. am i wrong? if the sperm has not entered the egg...then no human exist....just 2 single celled organisms.

you say if its only a 2 cell zygote, your ok with killing it. would you be ok with killing it at 16 years old? it`s only a few billion or trillion cells by then, thats not really what we should consider a human, is it. would you be in favor off killing the people in the nursing homes. they are less human than the baby, in the sense that more of there cells die than can be replaced.

i knew a woman that had killed a baby. she did it (true story) because she didn`t want her hips to spread. she killed it because she wanted her butt to be pretty. ok, if that is the way you are allowed to treat a human, fine. my 80 year old neighbor is on medicare, and has a good looking yard. would it be ok with you if i went over there and put some scissors in the back of his head and cut his spine in half? i mean, one, i`m paying for his medicare, and two, his pretty yard just makes me sick. would it be ok with you if my neighbor was your grandfather?

you ever wander how it was that the people of germany could stand by while all those jews were "aborted"? it`s simple enough. those jews weren`t "really" human. ever wander how slavery was accepted so easily? those folks were not "really" human. you ever notice how many folks try to make hunters out to be something hated? well, its only a short step from hated, to "less than human".

and this whole "the world is too populated" crap ( i don`t think you brought this up, but i`m on a roll here). has anybody heard of anyone claiming this, taking one for the team and commiting suicide? no, you haven`t. just like when a politician wants to rasie your taxes, while taking every tax break he/she can get there hands on. they want everyone else to pay the price.

Read the last sentence.

"Most birth control pills are "combination pills" containing a combination of the hormones estrogen and progesterone to prevent ovulation (the release of an egg during the monthly cycle). A woman cannot get pregnant if she doesn't ovulate because there is no egg to be fertilized. The Pill also works by thickening the mucus around the cervix, which makes it difficult for sperm to enter the uterus and reach any eggs that may have been released. The hormones in the Pill can also sometimes affect the lining of the uterus, making it difficult for an egg to attach to the wall of the uterus."

So now you know that if a women takes birth control, one of the ways she is controlling the birth of a human by using birth control contraceptives is through abortion. The fertilized egg is discharged during the next monthly cycle with out the women even knowing.

I stated that I think it should be avoided in using the morning after pill, but in cases were certain protection failed, or as others say the women has been raped it should be ok but still try to be avoided and the last possible option.

morning after pill, and birth control both utilize the natural Spontaneous abortion (a spontaneous abortion, is a natural thing that happens to women.) When her hormones are too high, the body spontaneously detaches the fertilized egg from the uterus, or prevents the fertilized egg from clinging. The pill, or birth control both increase the hormones in the women. This is not to say that it is ok, just to explain a little bit more about how they work. Its amazing what things we learn in biology I think. Just 2 weeks ago I had no clue to these things.

I hunt 365, you have a very good and valid point about abstinence.

Bowhunter, I really admire what you have learned in biology class in a short time. You seem to be a very smart young man, but im telling you everything unknown is saying is true. Education is great but when it goes against the word of God you have to decide witch one you will believe. Im going to believe God every time. You know, im convinced that some of the most evil people on earth are the most educated people, they have learned how to minipulate and decieve others into thinking their way. Let the word of God be the truth and every man a liar. Dale.

I'd just like to share a thought, though I'll probably end up getting some people to hate me, but I'm not sure of two things:

1) I really wouldn't call abortion murder per say, since Webster's dictionary defines murder as the unlawful killing of a living being (obviously this is not the exact wording, but it's really what is said), and as of now, abortion is legal, so its really not "murder". Killing? Sure....but doesn't basically ever one of us here on this forum kill when we hunt? Does that make us all "killers"?

2) I do not agree with the argument that killing a newly fertilized embryo is the same as killing a 16 year old kid or an 80 year old neighbor. Yes, of course I understand that both an embryo and an adult human are both living beings and both have been granted the gift of life. However, I cannot get myself to place the same values on both lifes - I know, of course, who am I to judge the value of a life?, but for arguements sake, I think that killing someone who has lived, and I mean really lived in this world (not have just "been alive"), and experienced love and worry and stress and excitement and other deep emotion that no other "living" embryo has experienced yet, that is something totally different. I feel that no embryo knows what it is missing out of in life. Killing an adult? Now, they know what life really is outside of a womb. I just don't understand that argument.

I know some of the facts, too. I know that an old enough fetus feels pain and will try to move away from the doctor's instruments. I understand that, and I know hearing things like that is hard to stomach - that's why I could personally never get an abortion.
I just felt like pointing out my thoughts on some of these arguments, and by all means everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And please, someone argue me back without getting rude or angry. I love debating and always have, I just need to debate with calm, cool headed, and intelligent people Thats why I'm on the Primos forum, of course

ky, I agree completely. I'm just curious why birth control isn't labeled as abortion, and why it is accepted in our society (in most cases) where as the morning after pill is not. I learned that the morning after pill is essentially a larger amount of normal birth control. My time in this debate has just concluded

I am against it. here is a good point also, if your for it then why didn't your Mother and Father abort you. they gave you a chance to live on God's green earth. If your for then go abort your self and give someone else a chance to breath our God given air. Also look at the animals we hunt they don't go to a doctor and abort there little ones.

If you dont use birth control and you dont want a pregnancy. Don't have ######. If you want to have unprotected ###### or not have any type of birth control. Then you take the responsibility of a child being created. And it is your responsibility to ensure that the new life has a chance to live life. People can be so irresponsible when it come's to ######. Been there many time's. But I was fortunate to not have an unwanted pregnancy.What upset's me is folk's who have a child a year and can't afford them, and then live off the state. For generation's. You do it !You make it ! You take care of it. . Just hope I never get a surprise 20 year's down the road. Hi your my dad . Not for abortion.But also not for abused children.Or orphaned homeless children either. We live in a sick society that would allow people to treat children like animals. And who would also allow people who live off public assistance to pump kid's out like a baby factory. When they can't afford to,or choose not to take care of the children they have. Especially after what I have seen over the year's. Disgust's me. Not against public assisted people at all. But just like anything else people take advantage of anything for free. And unfortunately the children suffer from it. Two week's ago my girlfriend came home to a two year old playing in the back yard in nothing but a diaper on 48 degree day. Had no idea whose baby it was. Who she was nothing. Turn's out that the babies parent's were sitting in their TWO BEDROOM APARTMENT AND NEVER KNEW THE BABY WAS GONE!!!!. The state police went there and there they sat on the couch drinkin beer and smokin weed. NICE HUH!. Made me so angry I wanted to plant my fist in both of their faces. Sorry so long just a sore subject for me. Not a political man either. Just know god didn't have plans for this child like that. Sick,mad you have no idea the practical white rage I had. Almost left work to pursue these sorry s.o.b's!

There is one major thing wrong with abortion---the baby dies. There is no way around this fact. God clearly told Jeremiah (Jer 1:5) "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were borned I sanctified you; I ordained (appointed) you a prophet to the nations." Whew! This says a lot, but look at these few things here:
1. The baby in the womb is a live person awaiting to be borned.
2. All of us came this way and have appointments for our life from God.
3. Just think about this, God could have sent us many wonderful gifts in persons that were slain through abortion. We may have had cures for cancers and other major medical illnesses from persons appointed by God to serve humanity that were murdered in the womb. Perhaps, great statesmen, economists, and military leaders, which would have served this nation and impacted history could have been killed in the womb.
Please share love and compassion with anyone contemplating this unreversible act.

I think that it is only alright when a women is raped or if she is in danger of dying- someone said it earlier. BUT for those who say its killing a being yes they are but the baby doesnt know anything...how many of you remember being born?

I do, Thats why i cant get an MRI done right today!

Ok, I am about as conservative as they come on every single issue except abortion. I am pro-choice in cases of rape, incest, and for the mother's safety. Now I can honestly say that there is absolutely no way that I would ever want a child of mine to be aborted. However, I'm not sure it is my responsibility or right to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies in these cases. I am not a woman and have no idea what it would feel like to be in their shoes so I don't think I should tell them what to do. I believe that what they do is between them and God and we should not pass judgement on them in those circumstances.

I just want to ask one probing question, and I want you to be truly and painfully honest with yourself:
What is the basis for your view/opinion?
Is it conscience, fear, science, the Bible, the news, your own logic, etc?
What if you are wrong?
What if you are right?

i guess in the legal sense, you could say killing a baby before it exits the womb isn`t murder. you could also say that, if you told your husband that you weren`t in the mood, but he punched you in the face and made you do it anyway, that isn`t legally rape either. but you and i both know it is...don`t we? and your point of all of us hunting, and killing. yes, all that have killed, deer, groundhog, fly, corn, (i still hear the corn screaming) are killers. if your going to argue that there is no difference between that and killing a baby, then to be intellectually honest, you would also have to say there is no difference between killing your baby in the womb, and stepping into a mall with an ak, and letting lead fly. are you telling me its all the same?

you said you understand that an embryo and an 80 year old are both living beings. do you understand they are both human? i`m not sure you do, but if that is your view, thats your view. you say they aren`t the same though, because, the baby doesn`t know "things". ronald reagan in the last years of his life, didn`t know "things". would you be able to stick a pair of scissors into the back of his neck and clip his spine? again, if use use that way of thinking, then we should be able to kill babys at least up till 2 years olds, because all they really know is eat and poop. and those are more instinct than knowing "things".

and finally, about judging the value of life. who am i to judge the value of life? why, i`m the guy living life, and life requires judgement. you can debate the value of a baby is nothing compared to an adult. but, there is no debating that the embryo and the adult are both humans, just at different stages of development. that is scientific fact. now, if you can make a statement such as "it doesn`t know things" so its ok to kill it, then i can say " its 16 and doesnt know enough things" so its ok to kill it too. who are we to judge?

bottom line is, if you can make a case that its ok to kill a baby because he/she doesn`t know "things", then you can make that case for anyone. sure, you may not think so, but hitler did. and stalin. i`ll say it again. lets just hope that enough people don`t get together and decide you don`t know enough "things".

i base my views on history, and science as i know it. i see the history of nations that classified certain groups as somehow being less, and what it leads to. look at the posts in here for example. i`ve already seen the argument used that "there are too many people on this earth". that thought occured to someone in china. now that have state REQUIRED baby killing. and if those folks feel it doesn`t go far enough, then you can bet the farm, they go after the ones that don`t know "things" next. oh no, the elites will not sacrifice there lives.

what if i`m wrong? well, then human life has no value. but if it doesn`t, then why not just let the world overpopulate and starve to death. its only humans...right? besides, starving to death is a painless peaceful death. thats what they told us when they starved terri schiavo to death, because she didn`t know enough things.

i have to disagree on the passing judgement. think of it like this. if a convicted baby rapper moves in next door to you, and he`s sitting in his back yard, watching you little child play in the back yard, do you walk into the house and leave the child alone? you know, what he did is between him and God, and we shouldn`t pass judgement on him. we shouldn`t tell him baby rapping is wrong. you can choose not to judge, but i won`t.

i`m not saying this to be hateful, or to be insulting, and i hope its not taken that way. but, this is how i view the act of judging.

Preach it unknown brother!